God

[IsmAvatar]

Ooh, now there's an interesting theory. I like that.

[dwmitch]

I always thought string theory was the notion that our universe is contained in a "sea" of energy surrounded by other seas and that the big bang was caused when two strings collided. Of course, I got that from Nova and I was only able to catch the last half hour when they discussed that "theory" (if it can't be tested it should never advance beyond hypothesis).

Anyway, to answer the initial questions, yes to belief in God and Scripture (or as it was put, the Gospel and the Bible).

I'm what's known as a Young Earth Creationist (YEC). We believe that not only faith and science can be reconciled, they are inseperable.

I see evidence of changes within a species and even similar species emerging from existing (modern horses would be unlikely to be able to breed with early horses, showing signs of speciation), but until fossils are found showing a transition from aquatic life to horse I shall continue with my policy of filing Darwin's writings under fiction (if I ever end up opening that book store as I planned).

And to beat you to the punch (i.e. before you say I live in a fantasy world with dragons and unicorns), I do believe in dragons. Only now we call them dinosaurs. When the last of the dragons died and their remains were out of human sight the following generations started to perceive the old timers' accounts of dragons as mythology.

And I also believe in unicorns, although the reference in the book of Job, which a lot of skeptics use against us, was a translation error. In a Mid-East country (I can't recall which one) they tie the horns of goats together in such a way that they eventually grow into a single spiraled horn. I don't know exactly when they start the process, but it's a lot like braces. Gradual changes in pressure to alter the growth of the horn.

[Xenith]

homosapiens didn't exist in the same era as dinosaurs i thinky it mustv'e been 1-5 eras later or something, so the only way they would know about the dinosaurs is if they found fossils,

about the one horned goat thing, yeah thats a pretty good idea of where unicorns came from, and some places still do those types of things, like in thailand i think they use those neck rings to make it look like the neck is long but actually the collar bone was just pushed downwards, and dreadlocks work in a similar way to your unicorn theory, they twist and glue a bunch of hair together and eventually they grow like that.

one thing about the one horned goat thing though is that when they have ofspring they wouldn't have one horn since it's parents horns only changed not it's dna

[IsmAvatar]

I agree that it is not unlikely that dragons existed. Hydrogen deposits were fairly common during their era, which explains how they could breathe fire and fly.
And your Unicorn idea isn't all too unlikely, although Xenith makes a good point that seems to bring it down a few points. As for the AEther of life in their blood...
Although I remain a skeptic and can only say it's likely or possible. Even if that means having to know all the theories out there - a love of knowledge is truly something to cherish.

And I wouldn't blame you if you did 'live in fantasy.' I have quite a few theories myself that fantasy may have existed at one point - and they all fall nicely in line with science -- and most of them don't work with a god or gods.

But it's too late to put faith and science back together. You've discarded the "Earth is flat" and the "Earth is the center of the universe" scriptures when science decided to disprove them, and you still hold on to the belief that a woman can give birth without ever having received male semen. There's enough scientific proof that we know it's not possible, semen is required in order to fertilize the egg.

Also note, the Bible says that Earth was just put into existance, and darkness had to be created. It also says that humans were the first to walk on the earth - not dinosaurs. Or do you discard that scripture too?
If you keep discarding scriptures, I'm convinced all you'll wind up with is the hystorical part of the bible that we already know.

As for the string theory, we can actually test it - we just need a little more technology. All we have to do is locate a place where a string suddenly just appears. And there's a couple theories out there as to how the string theory is self supporting so that we don't need a non-self-supporting god to create this stuff. Strings are just energy, not matter. But when you combine several strings, you get the attributes of matter.

[dwmitch]

xenith said:

homosapiens didn't exist in the same era as dinosaurs i thinky it mustv'e been 1-5 eras later or something, so the only way they would know about the dinosaurs is if they found fossils,

That's if you put stock in carbon dating and its numerous problems.

about the one horned goat thing, yeah thats a pretty good idea of where unicorns came from, and some places still do those types of things, like in thailand i think they use those neck rings to make it look like the neck is long but actually the collar bone was just pushed downwards, and dreadlocks work in a similar way to your unicorn theory, they twist and glue a bunch of hair together and eventually they grow like that.

one thing about the one horned goat thing though is that when they have ofspring they wouldn't have one horn since it's parents horns only changed not it's dna

I never said genetically they were unicorns. The process is performed on the parents, then repeated on the offspring.

[dwmitch]

admin said:

I agree that it is not unlikely that dragons existed. Hydrogen deposits were fairly common during their era, which explains how they could breathe fire and fly.
And your Unicorn idea isn't all too unlikely, although Xenith makes a good point that seems to bring it down a few points. As for the AEther of life in their blood...

Believing in their existance doesn't mean I believe in their powers. For example, the unicorns I believe in aren't even horselike creatures as depicted in myths, and the only way they can sustain life is through their milk (by the way, anyone ever try goat's milk? I've heard it comes out of the teat sour but I haven't been able to find any).

Just like I don't believe dragons breathed fire. There could have been some breeds with the necessary bacteria in their digestive systems to produce hydrogen from food and the instinct to hoard platinum, but I believe that the fire breathing part of the legend came from condensation during the ice age, although that wouldn't explain why there are no legends of fire breathing people.

...

But it's too late to put faith and science back together. You've discarded the "Earth is flat" and the "Earth is the center of the universe" scriptures when science decided to disprove them, and you still hold on to the belief that a woman can give birth without ever having received male semen. There's enough scientific proof that we know it's not possible, semen is required in order to fertilize the egg.

Where does the Bible state that the earth is flat as fact? It refers to the corners of the earth, but does that also mean that anyone who says "I've gone to the ends of the earth to find <insert object here>" believes in a flat earth?

In fact, a flat earth isn't even Biblical. Isaiah 40:22 says "It is he that sittith upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers..."

As far as the immaculate conception, I can't offer any theories on that, other than that the Spirit of the Lord took on an earthly form when he visited Mary. However, given the law of matter of conservation of energy and the law of conservation of matter, God may very well have a physical body with which he could have impregnanted Mary.

Also note, the Bible says that Earth was just put into existance, and darkness had to be created. It also says that humans were the first to walk on the earth - not dinosaurs. Or do you discard that scripture too?
If you keep discarding scriptures, I'm convinced all you'll wind up with is the hystorical part of the bible that we already know.

In the book of Hebrews, I cannot recall the chapter or verse at the moment, it is stated that what is seen was made from what cannot be seen. That would suggest that the actual mechanism of creation was the coming together of molecules. I fail to see how that's any more scoffable than the idea of the planets being formed by space dust compressing, which was the theory I was taught all throughout junior high and high school (public school with a teacher that believed that if the science books say it there's no alternative way).

I am not familiar with the verse or passage that said the darkness was created, and I don't see how it would considering that darkness is the absence of light. However, even from a secular view point light may not have always existed. The law of conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only changed. It's possible that photons came into existance years after the big bang or whatever belief in origins you hold to.

I also don't see where Scripture states that man was the first to walk the earth. In fact, according to the book of Genesis sea creatures were created on the fifth day, with land animals (including man) being created on the sixth. The order stated in the first chapter implies that even though they were created the same day, the creation of the lower creatures precedes the creation of man.

There seem to be a lot of misconceptions in this thread. I shall try to clarify some of them as time permits.

[IsmAvatar]

Well, I was a bandwagon christian myself not too many years ago. Depressed all the time with all the bad things that kept coming my way and a constant cloud over my head. I converted (deconverted?) to agnosticism, and I don't think anything can make me happier.
It looks like I've got a long way to go before I can even bother trying to argue with the Bible - but I must note, 5-6 days doesn't really leave much time for dinosaurs.

There's a lot of misconceptions about agnostics and atheists, too. We've both got a lot to learn about each other, and tolerance seems like the best answer. In my humble opinion, whatever makes you "walk away from life" with a smile on your face and doesn't intrude on others persuits of 'happiness' (and I have pages of justification and reasoning behind that, not just "blind faith"). If it's a hope in some sort of after-life, that's great. If it's carpe diem, that's awesome too.

[TheMG]

Megamushroom said:

Wow, long replies ey!!

We all seem to have prett much the same views on everything, so not much debating is going on

My view is pretty much a mixture of all of yours.

Did you know, the bible is an exact replica (near enough anyway) of the stories of a previous religion, hundreds of years before jesus?

The english are given the impression that All americans are god fearing citizens, this is especially portrayed in films, and to hear you all non believing, is a shock, lol.

The english are brought to believe this becuase its true. A poll said that most americans wont let their children marry aitheists, and they dont trust them. They are like the most god fearing race on earth. I kinda think of it like they are all our societys, from back when the europeans invaded, but they kept the old ways, still god fearing and all that.

I tried to read all above, but failed. Heres my story, and I dont give a s*** if it has already been said.

I strongly dont believe in god. Big aitheist. Strong believer in science, big bang, evolution, and slightly leaning to the multiverse idea. I think logically. If I cant see, hear or feel something, I wont believe it. If I dont see god, in my eyes he doesnt exist. Theres no smoke without fire. Even god-believers say that.

I love watching documentarys about science, becuase I know after watching it I will have a slightly new (or firmer) idea of how the universe works and was created. Though the whole quantum physics doesnt really take me too much.

[IsmAvatar]

The english are given the impression that All americans are god fearing citizens, this is especially portrayed in films, and to hear you all non believing, is a shock, lol.

The english are brought to believe this becuase its true. A poll said that most americans wont let their children marry aitheists, and they dont trust them. They are like the most god fearing race on earth. I kinda think of it like they are all our societys, from back when the europeans invaded, but they kept the old ways, still god fearing and all that.

Or you could look at it this way: God-fearing people don't let their children use the internet/forums. You'd be surprised how biased some polls can be. There are a few religions which don't allow their members to even take part in polls because they don't believe in democracy, but intsead in divine monocracy. How do you expect the polls to account for these people?

I have noticed a bit of a shift in America, where people are becoming less and less religious as they become more and more educated. To the point that the south stopped lynching people! (just thought I'd throw that in there for amusement). Funny thing is, the Mayans predicted this.
That's not to say there's still some big religions out there, like the new Intelligent Design, the somewhat new Scientology, and the New Age Christianity brought forth to revive the dead Christianity. To misquote a somewhat famous atheist philosopher: No matter how intelligent society becomes, those who are more intelligent will still manage to deceive the more vulnerable minds with bizarre fabrications of faith. It's called "controlling the masses". Hypothetically, let's say the pope lost a bet with Germany and wants them dead. Instead of telling people that he lost a bet, to which they'll reply "screw you", he says "Germany is full of infidels. Crusade!" and voila.

In the year 2002, there were 14000 active religions. According to 35% of them, if you want to get into heaven, you have a 1 in 14000 chance of getting it right (35% of them believe theirs is the one true religion and the only one that will get you in to heaven). Good luck. Don't forget to enjoy life a little while you're not busy whacking yourself over the head with a bible.

[TheMG]

@ismavatar:

Exactly! The last part about tricking people into things is so true. Its all playing on the less educateds minds, getting them to believe something becuase it seems plausible, even if there is no evidence. Or they get people to do it out of fear, usually of hell. I think its just another, even worse, form of threatning. "Devote youre life to me or god will make you suffer". These people are shown evidence, YES IT IS EVIDENCE! - but not of god, which makes the larger group of the population (think back in history how little people were educated) think there is a god. "The earth exists, so there must be someone to have created it" - no other explanations. So now our ancestors believe in god - and quite rightly so, they were shown evidence that at their time had no other explanation. So when they have kids they teach them how god exists, so even when today so many of us are educated, becuase of years of being taught one way, christians cant turn their back on it, Catch 21!

@camo Pachyderm:

You sais about the parting of the red sea thing being scientifically explained. It is not unlikely that that would have happened, it is almost certain. And do you know why? If the sea hadnt parted then it wouldnt have been thought a miracle, we wouldnt know about it. So there may have been a thousand times 'god' didnt save them when they tried to escape, but its likely one of those times the conditions were right. Of course we wouldnt hear about the failures, so we are brought to believe it was a miracle. Idiots.

About aitheist-computers. Well thats probably true, becuase computers are logical, do only what they have solid proof of, have a good reason for etc. Aitheists are the same. I bet if you ran a computer program as if it were a judge in a court to decide whether god exists, it would find it nonexistant. So aitheists probably see a computer as one of their own, they think the same way.

[theMG]

Oh ye. god supposedly controls everyone? Ya? Well then if he controls you, and your life is planned, then surely itd be unfair to be sent to hell. Becuase whatever you did, you did becuase god told you. And you couldnt make you life better to go to heaven, becuase god has already got your life planned.

And why did he create hitler, did he want 6 million jews to die? If he did then it probably proves the jews wrong.

And if Allah had everyones interests at hand, then why is he letting his followers kill thousands by suicide bombing. Maybe allah does exists, but hes clearly evil.

If the christians were right, and their god does exist, then why is there so much suffering? He is allowing millions to die, and for what cause? If their god does exist, hes clearly lazy. Wouldnt go for him.

So there are amny flaws in religions, I just pointed out a few. To all you theists, get me something that contradicts in my religion (aitheism).

[IsmAvatar]

Easy with the hot air there, buddy. You're just asking to get flamed.

To all you theists, get me something that contradicts in my religion (aitheism).

I'm not a theist, but I'll take a stab at it.

Maybe allah does exists, but hes clearly evil.

Under what grounds do you define Good and Evil? Why have you justfied them on said grounds?

[xaranid]

"another interesting fact, did you guys know that in the original bibles there were pictures of flying saucers? "

.....uh....yeah, about that. im going to go right out and tell you that that is not true. Where did you hear this???

[IsmAvatar]

I must say that this topic is now rather old and yet rather active (no I'm not closing it). Any opinions I made in earlier posts in this topics have likely been upgraded since then, as I learn more through scholarly-stuff and philosophize more and such.

If I made that statement, you have my deepest apologies, as I can no longer uphold it (although if I recall correctly, I believe it was Xenith who made the statement).

A little update on one of my first posts in this topics.
I've taken a course in psychology, and now know that the region of the brain responsible for forethought is indeed the prefrontal cortex. This region starts to develop in the teenage years and finishes at around 25ish. Hence why all the teens are getting drunk - because they don't care about the consequences. I myself matured very fast for my age, and never got involved in those drugs and alcohol and such because of the later consequences.

As for theories (eg theory of evolution and the laws against gays) - I find it most interesting that I mentioned those back in a time when they weren't the topic of great controversy yet. Strangely, not much long afterwards, a huge explosion of these topics comes out, and our entire nation becomes split between who believes that gay marriage is okay or not, and who believes the theory of evolution or who believes that it's just a theory and Intelligent Design is more likely.

I'd like to add a little bit on to Theories. "Our theory of evolution is as much of a theory as our theory of magnetism." So says the judge who ruled Intelligent Design out of the classroom. These theories are incredibly likely, and after hundreds or thousands of tests, still hold true. Unlike Intelligent Design, these theories are testable. So why are they only Theories? Well, if you dig deep enough into metaphysics and philosophy, through Existencialism, Platonian concepts, and the likes, you will find that reality itself is just a big if. But as Xenith's sig kinda states, I feel, breathe, bleed, and exist in this reality, regardless of its existance, and I shall follow its laws. These theories are solid, and it will take another einstein to blow them out of the water like how Einstein was able to point out some of Newton's mistakes and incompletenesses. But even still, most of Newton's works are as good as gold, with a few minor technicalities.

I am still an agnostic, and my definition of this way back when is still very accurate (probably the best I've been able to define it in years)

[darahbi]

I believe in God because of a thing called "Faith" which holds up your thoughts and morals and keeps you strong to them.

((Hey Ism long time no talk))